INTERVIEW OF RA PRIME MINISTER SERGE SARGSIAN TO MR. HAGOB AVEDIKIAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF AZG DAILY NEWSPAPER
- - I think my response is quite natural. You inquire in your article whether Serge Sargsian knows. I want to say, yes, Mr. Avedikian, I know, and I apologize, but you can't even realize how profoundly I am informed about the problems of our country. As for the public response, I think that if people, the citizens see and believe that the leader, let that be a prime minister, a minister, or a chief specialist is aware of the problems and the measures for their settlement, a kind of a trust is shaped, i.e. an atmosphere that helps the settlement of the issue. This is my goal. But, I want to confront and say that I disagree with the opinion that that is not accepted among our people. Many journalists can say how they witnessed our hot disputes with the defense minister, with the home affairs minister, with the national security minister in my cabinet. I want to say from the very beginning, to avert any insinuations, those were real disputes and not acts of pressure. I believe, it's extremely important, that a journalist, the head of a mass media source were aware of the work of our authorities. Certainly, I mean the people, who are concerned about the fate of our country, who touch upon issues in their articles aimed to further development. They touch upon the issue to settle the problem, they do not mock. If a person writes and speaks poison, I don't even dispute to such people, sparing my forces. In such cases, I will use my efforts and forces more effectively. That's why I think our meeting is very natural. - Recently, we often see you over TV, in many TV programs, in meetings with different classes of our people, with people of various professions, for example with taxi drivers. My question is the following, in the future, if you are elected the president of our country, will you continue having such meetings, or you will close yourself in a tower and rule the people from there.
- Firstly, I am very pleased to see your trust, but I don't want to speak of the presidential elections, at present. I, generally, believe that a mature person can change a couple of his habits, but I am sure that a mature person can't completely change his style of working. I think that my style of working is based on holding conferences with people before taking decisions, taking into account the opinions of people, as the decisions are taken for a certain goal. And if the people, who are involved in such serious processes, are not sure about the decision and its implementation, it's useless to take the given decision. My fellow soldiers, I am sure, I can state that we had a great faith in our victory in the war that was forced to us. I am sure that that faith of ours was one the guarantees for our victory. We should convince our employees, our citizens that we have picked up a right goal that we will sure attain. If we are not sure that we can do good things in Armenia, we will never be able to do that, i.e. there is no alternative. The right way is to speak, to consult with people. You have just reminded that, and also in your article, the matter with the taxi drivers. See, the goal is a good one, a right goal, that a transport at the service of the citizens should be safe, that the cars at the service of the citizens should be comfortable, etc. And we took the decision to attain that goal, but unfortunately this decision wasn't completely figured out. - Right!
- We needed to talk to the people; we talked, realized the problem, took the decision, and gave time so that people could settle their issues. - Mr. Prime Minister. I already want to touch upon the key issue of the article. Certainly, You saw that I didn't talk the so-called higher politics, political issues, otherwise I would have asked you what kind of relations Armenia will have with NATO, or what kind of developments there will be in Armenia-Russia relations.
- Ask me these questions in your next article. - I wanted to ask questions that a common average citizen would like to, questions about his living conditions, about his life. In connection with this, I may repeat myself, but several minutes ago You said that you are well aware of the problems, I will repeat once again, whether Mr., Serge Sargsian is aware of the key issues in Armenia, the problems that are closely linked to the living conditions and the lives of people?
- Really, I am aware of all problems. If I say that I know about absolutely any problem of each individual, each family, this won't be serious, but I know the basic problems. You know, the head of the government can get information through different tubes of the state apparatus. The most important thing is that the head of the government can get information from various sources and compare everything. One of the most important sources is the letter from the citizens. It's extremely important. I personally systemized problems in the letters wherever I used to work. Naturally, I can't physically read all of the letters, I have assistants for that, but I look through their main content. The third tube are the people, mere human communication, as You said, visits to the villages, military stations, cities, plants, and this is the most effective way to convince people, to encourage them. I am a human being too, am I not? I have my own circle of friends, my childhood friends, my university friends; I have children, too, etc. I accumulate information from all of these sources. I ask you to take into account the fact that I used to work at the Defense Ministry, at the National Security System, at the Home Affairs Ministry for many years, i.e. in the bodies where they know how to get information and which information is correct and which is for a private goal. As in many cases, people try to mislead the authorities, get perhaps economic profits out of that, or make harm to those to compete with him in his carrier, etc. They may try to deceive me by that. Anyway, a lie doesn't live long, and they all know that if someone deceives me, I cant' work with them any longer. Certainly, the mass media sources are one of the information sources, that my assistants thoroughly study and provide me with relevant information. - It's clear, Mr. Prime Minister. You have stated for several times that the tempo of economic growth in Armenia will be preserved by 8-10% in the upcoming five years. What do you think, how can such a stability be maintained, as you know we have microeconomic indicators that some of the experts condition by the fact that we were so back warded that any step made by our country in its economy is registered as a progress and this will gradually decline. You point out 8-10% of stable growth, how will this be achieved?
- In fact, firstly, 8-10% is less than the present indicators are, and, secondly, I realize that 8-10% is indeed a great problem for a stable economy. On the other hand I am indeed happy of having provided for concrete figures, concrete indicators in our Government's action plan. Otherwise, how could we estimate our work? What would we say then? As now, we can say that we have achieved this and that, this is a good result and we have something to compare it with, etc., etc. I'm sure that it is always necessary to have a definite goal; the horizontal bar must be always raised high, so that no alternative may remain. Let not my words sound pathetic, but we have doomed our government system to produce such results, for, if it does not, we must think that it has had done its day and it must be changed. So, it is a difficult task, but nevertheless it is real. How can we fulfill it? If only in case we realize that the private sector makes the major part of our economy and that the most developed spheres are the construction and service spheres. I think that at first we must take much more care of our private sector, and secondly we must encourage the development of our industry and agriculture (be it private or national). We have a titanic work to do in this field, but we also have the determination and we shall do that work. Immediately I would like to go to another idea in your article and say that indeed our economy today is not that of the early 90's and even of 2000, when investments two or three million dollars could have great influence on the economy growth. And today 2, 3 or 5 percent economic growth is much greater in volume than 10 or even 15-20 percent a few years ago. Let us not compare, but we must take a look at the new problems from a different point of view. If in the 90's or in the beginning of 2000 the main problem of economy development was the financing, today the problem of financing is not the number one for the economy of Armenia. This refers to big business. Of course, small and middle-size business still has this problem, but we shall work on it. I shall refer to it later. Today our major task is having programs, promising programs. In a sort period I have met with numerous businessmen, residing both in Armenia and abroad, both Armenians and foreigners. They want their finance capitals to be invested in business. Here is the point where having forward-looking, detailed and realistic programs becomes most essential. This is what we really need. The second most important problem is that we, unfortunately, do not have very many skilled and contemporary managers. This is really a great problem and we have to solve it in the following ways: first, we have to improve our education and, second, we have attract transnational corporations to Armenia, for their presence in the Armenian market will promote not only economy growth, but also the development of business culture in Armenia and so on. What about small and middle-size business, must compulsorily encourage it, as it makes averagely 60% GDP in the developed states, 80% innovations are made in its sphere and it solves a great deal of the employment problem. We must provide conditions that those people have warranted means of developing their business. - Recently you stated that that you don't want to see poor and indigent people in Armenia. Of course, that is a wish that everyone has, but it is different when I say about that and when the Prime Minister and candidate on presidential elections says. It implies that he has a program and a clear view of the ways of eliminating the poverty.
- When I say that there must be no poverty in Armenia, I mean that the people must have opportunity to earn money with their own sweat. So, we have to create relevant vacancies for the people. I say "relevant", as people know that the present circumstances are other than five or seven years ago. In other words, it is not true that there is no work in Armenia now. We all have realized that and the citizens of Yerevan must have realized that first, as they can always see numbers of villagers working on construction in Yerevan. Myself I saw how workers from Russia were working on the reconstruction of the Sports and Concerts Complex in Yerevan. The roles have somehow changed. Our main task is to create vacancies for our people fit to their professions. A citizen must have opportunity of using his knowledge and being relevantly paid. This is the task we are obliged to fulfill. I am sure it is possible, for there are certain ways and we shall try them. More skilled professionals will be paid more. That is obvious. But we must also take into consideration that there are people who cannot work and that another part of the society are state servicemen. So the second part of the program is to increase the retire pensions and the wages of state employees. - I have noted in my article that the Government made decision about increasing the pensions by 60% and that you said the pensions must be higher than AMD 20.000. Yesterday from the statement of the Finance Minister I learned that the pensions were determined AMD 21.840. In comparison with the present pensions rate, that is a considerable sum, where will you get that money? I mean, does the state budget have some secret corners, which are to be put to usage now, or is this just an economic and administrative issue, or did we really increased our incomes or found new financing sources?
- I must say that 60% is not the limit for us. To be more correct, the retire pensions will be increased by 68%, and the rest will be increased by 60% from January 1, 2008. The Governmental action plan also says that by 2012 the average pension in Armenia must have been increased up to AMD 42 thousand. Of course, 21 or 22 thousand, or 42 thousand drams will not properly provide a well-off life for a pensioner. If I were a naïve, I would say that the pensioner could live normally with that 21 or 22 thousand drams. But at the same time it's evident that 21 thousand is better than 13 thousand. If we had an opportunity, we would undoubtedly increase the pensions to AMD 200 thousand and would say the problem was settled. We must raise solvable, actual issues in order not to disappoint anyone. Now let us return to the question - where those financing sources come from? Did we found a treasure or something secret? No, we didn't. Just the work that my precedents have done and the work that the president of our country has done gives us an opportunity to solve these kind of issues. Of course, we have problems, of course, there are issues, and we must solve those problems and issues. We must increase the taxes from GDP. It means that we must increase the tax-collection. We must bring everybody to the taxation field and strengthen the tax legislation. Why not? We must strengthen those penalties that the criminal code anticipates for the economic crimes. If we bring the maximum economy to the field of taxation, those issues will be settled easily. I am not an idealist; I understand that business always wants to avoid taxation in all parts of the world, but the state always tries to get all what is anticipated by law. I know the values of our GDP and the collected taxes. We must increase the values of the taxes and from the beginning we must reach the medium countries' level. It will be one of the most important issues for me. I am sure that we will softly solve those issues. - There is an important issue, it's not a new one as it was available also at time of Soviet Armenia: our country is not developed proportionally as there is a big, even immeasurable difference between some provinces and the capital. On this occasion, a step forward was taken (but for me a very little step): it is the AMD 10 billion investment in the provinces. According to me, the need is so big there, that bigger programs are necessary, I mean first of all the secondary towns or the country towns that have lost their industrious abilities and where the population lives in very bad conditions.
- Firstly, nothing is lost. Secondly, who says that the 10 billions are the only means for the development of our territories. We must solve surplus issues with the surplus 10 billions. We have already a short-time program of the works in each province since the end of 2007. And I want to mention that those numbers are impressive. Why did we speak of that 10 billion, because the Government finally went to the National Assembly and increased the budget, and I am sure that our taxpayers will understand where those sums and those means go. That is why we clarify where those means are directed. They have particular direction. Firstly, we direct those resources to liquidate the causes and not the effects. I can clarify what I said. It means that the funds will not be distributed among those who suffered from the floods, but we will strengthen the river-beds. Yesterday we assigned more than AMD 1 billions for the strengthening of the most dangerous parts of the bed of Araxes River. A similar problem we have in Ararat and we will assign means for it. We had similar problem in Gegharkunik and we have already settled it, etc. And secondly, we really pursue the goal to spend the last dram to the purpose. I can assure, that if any state official or anybody will take a guilty glance at those means, not only at those but at any state means, in that case it will have grave consequences. - Yerevan causes to take interest with its problems; I mean the accumulations here, the simultaneous construction life, all of these, which raise displeasure. Of course, we have had this kind of situation, I remember, when the pavements were being constructed. We wrote about it, and the other representatives of the press, too, and the population was also dissatisfied. But this time the situation is really unbearable. I am mostly interested in the accumulation problem: what must we do in order to unload this city and make the people to move to provinces. If we have a program of proportional development, is it supposed to solve the problem?
- What you think is the same what we will do; of course, we'll be able to unload Yerevan. The territorial proportional development pursues that goal. It means that people who live for example in Koti, Vardenis, Shirak or Yerevan will have the same conditions. This is the aim of the territorial proportional development program. And we will do everything to transfer some functions from Yerevan to the provinces and encourage the businessmen to direct their efforts to the villages. - Do you mean Dilijan?
- I mean everywhere: Dilijan, Jermuk, Tsaghkadzor, Vardenis, Getashen, etc. The state must take the role of a tube; it must absorb big sums and bring it to the villages with the help of different tubes, country towns, etc. Yerevan has really various problems. Of course, Yerevan has a problem of ecology. We have a problem of taking a fresh air, taking a walk; we have a problem of playing fields, motor-garages that grow like mushrooms, etc. But the ways of the settlement must be clear. We know that there are more than 100 organizations that are busy with planting trees, but there is no tangible effect, as firstly, we must not cut the new trees, and secondly, we must take care of the planted trees in order they grow, it means, that we must create an irrigation system, and we must take care of those sets. At last, we must plant trees that will not pollute Yerevan and will add lustre to our city. Yerevan has, of course, a big problem of illegal constructions. Approximately every day I have an unpleasant conversation with the Mayor of Yerevan: we must stop this construction, or move this stall, or we must clean this pavement, etc. I don't want to justify someone, but this is a difficult problem to solve, as there are many permissions and programs that are accumulated during the last years. Who acts illegally, he understands it, for example, he has got the permission several years ago and today he realizes it, when we approach him, he shows his permission. I don't want to blame anyone; I just represent the reality. It means that this is a big problem and we must settle it, but we have no right to distort Yerevan.
Yerevan has a big problem of garbage collection. And to my questions they answer that an investor will come soon, who will build a plant here, etc., in order to solve the problem, to cultivate the garbage... We must settle these issues as fast as possible.
Of course, Yerevan has also a big problem of transport, but in this case it's better to have a problem than not to have, than to be like Yerevan 10 years ago, of course, I don't speak of it as a justification, of course, we must solve those problems, too. We must find the keys, for example, why not to work in three shifts. Yes, we must work in three shifts in order to reach better conditions soon.
But I want to draw your attention to the thing that we can't, for example, solve the problem of transport just by state resolutions or physical works. All of us, the pedestrians and the drivers, must understand that traffic is not only a movement but also issues connected with security. This is really a big problem and we must solve it today.
Yerevan has many other problems, various big problems: from the buildings scheduled for demolition to the roofs, lifts and other problems of the apartment buildings. I have already told that AMD 3 mln are assigned to give to the Municipality of Yerevan for the re-construction of the lifts. The problems cannot be solved in one day, and if the problems are the effects of the development process, we must not be so dissatisfied. It's better to have development problems than little problems of regress. - On this occasion, as we spoke of traffic, I want to say that I want many to follow the example of the Prime Minister. Sometimes, when at night I leave the editorial office, and the same day you have a meeting in the office of Republican Party, I see that even at midnight your car stops at red light in spite of those JEEPs or other cars that pass the roads not even seeing red or green lights. Of course, it's necessary to bring up our society, too.
- By our own example. - Yes, but I don't see many to follow your example yet. In order to explain what I meant, I want to say that this year we tried to cooperate with the community centers at least in Yerevan, as our people, the common citizens are more interested, as you said in the issues of transportation, sanitary services, kindergartens, schools, and in delivery services. But as we talk of the general balanced development, we should count on the local administration bodies or give up some democratic measures and apply the policy of appointed positions. The question turned out to be a long one, but last year our journalists visited 52 villages, especially in the remote regions. We witnessed a situation when in one and the same region in one of the villages the living conditions were comparatively good, than in the other one, for only one simple reason, the head of the first village was smarter and managed to maintain his village. Certainly, these are two different issues, but they concern the general development.
- Certainly, many factors depend on a person, and a good head of a community or a village can have a good impact on the situation. Of course, we should encourage the development of the local administration bodies, but this is a new institution and there is still much to do. Anyway, I can say that the community head is elected by the residents, and if they are discontent with him, she may not elect him. But this will be a formal approach to the issue. Particularly, in the capital, we will solve many problems by means of the law on Yerevan. Certainly, the state should play a significant role, and we should do huge work in this direction, unless the traditions are fully shaped, unless they elect the very person who really wants to serve to the community. I realize that you question has a context: you said local administration bodies and you said that they work less transparently than some of the high ranked officials. Of course, I understood that you mean the state apparatus. Here also, we need to work much, we at last should be able to build a powerful state. What I mean by saying a powerful state. A powerful state means an effective state. Effective means that a state primary goal is to be able to secure public welfare, i.e. one should be able to shape such an atmosphere where an individual has the opportunity to create something for himself and for the community he lives in. The second function is that the state should be able to secure its safety, defense, i.e. it should have an efficient army. The third function is to thoroughly implement the laws and maintain the order, i.e. the state should have a police, security bodies, court system, prosecutor's office that follow the laws. The next function of a powerful state is to be able to secure microeconomic indicators, the state should be able to secure economic growth, low inflation, little budget deficit, i.e. little debt. The state should have as little debts as possible, i.e. manageable home and foreign debts. The state should secure the public healthcare and public education, i.e. it should have affordable healthcare institutions and public schools, that would maintain the natural and complex development of the younger generations. And, in the end, the function of a powerful state should be the balanced development of the very regions. In this case the state apparatus will serve to the people. And when the state apparatus to reaches this level of functioning, it will be a very good example for the local administration bodies. I don't talk of the very far future, be sure certain things have been changed for better and will sure be changed. We can't compare our today's state apparatus to the one in early 90ies or in mid 90-ies. - Mr. Prime Minister, what you said envisages a chain of changes, system changes. Are you going to make these changes alone, by means of the state apparatus, our society and particularly, our entrepreneurs will assist you?
- You know, I would put that a bit differently: I always said and I repeat now that the work done in the past secured good basis to hasten the development and we will try to hasten the development, certainly, by involving everyone, both the state apparatus, and the local administration bodies and the political system, as well as the individuals and the entrepreneurs. We should systemize all our efforts.
I want to talk of my team, generally about teamwork. I always supported teamwork in my activities, I always was a unit of a big team, I always had my own team and considered that the teamwork could guarantee success. Today, we have a huge team, we have a large party, a large army of entrepreneurs, we have a large army of artists, active intelligentsia and I am sure that we will attain serious, very serious results with such a team. In particular, I want to point out the entrepreneurs. In am sure that our entrepreneurs will soon realize that the source of their welfare, why not the main source of their wealth, is the people, their employees. And they should cherish their source of profits, wealth and prosperity. Sure, they should realize that they'd better have no poor people in the country, and they should be concerned about this, because, you know yourself, if there are starving children, a rich child can never feel happy. Surely, they must go in for benevolence, but they must be engaged in correct benevolence, in other words they must share they incomes, their profits, and do not do that due to avoiding taxpaying. They should not give people what the government might have given. The benevolence programs must run in long terms, and not from one election campaign to another. A person should have an inner motivation for benevolence. Finally, the reach people must come to realize that having much money does not imply having more privileges than the others do. They should bear certain responsibility. Moreover, the rich must realize that money shall not take them to "heaven". Having money does not warrant them from going to hell, and the right way of avoiding going to hell is to atone for the sin, and of course it is better not to sin at all. - Mr. Prime Minister, at present we are lining a period between the recently finished and the coming elections. The period is rather short. What essential questions did you find in it?
- To be frank, it seems obvious that the Republican Party won the elections. But I would say that the Republican Party obtained the majority of the votes, but it was the Republic of Armenia who won. Indeed, Armenia had great benefit from holding such elections. And this is just the flowers, and we shall be able to do the harvest. And in order to attain vast harvest, we must also hold the presidential elections on the level with the parliamentary elections. A lot of people may say a lot of things. You know, it is natural when a party, which has gained little votes, is dissatisfied with the elections and tries to protest. I am glad with another thing. All the researches, both Armenian and foreign experts state that more than the half of the citizens of Armenia think that the elections were fair and just. This is very inspiring. Another inspiring fact is that only 40% of the population of Armenia thinks that there is no progress in the country. 60% is a remarkable number. This fact makes me think that general reforms are possible and that this is a good basis for further progress. I would like to hear another question addressed to me, a question, which you maybe probably ask to yourself. "What have you done after the elections?" Before answering this question, first I would like tell about what I haven't done. - That's interesting...
- God be witness, I haven't done much. I work a little more than 5 months and it would be ridiculous to claim that I stand behind today's progress. We already have 12% economy growth. What I have done was not sparing my staff and myself. I think it is very important, when a person does everything possible to fulfill his duty. The most important thing that I have done was coming to realize that the huge work, done under the leadership of our President over the recent years, ensures that Armenia tomorrow will be much better than it is today. I have also realized that I am able to convince in it not only friends, my work team and my party fellows, but also the people. Even if there is no straight confidence, only the hope is enough to relieve the burden of our tasks. - Thank you, Mr. Prime Minister; I thank you once again for this opportunity. I shall try to ask other questions next time.
- I thank you too, and hope that you will have new questions in the future.
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- 1827 Russian forces occupy Fort Sardarapat.
- 1854 The Battle of Alma in the Crimea.
- 1908 Birth of Catholicos Vazgen the First. He died in 1994.
- 1918 A British Army firing squad summarily murders the 26 Baku Commissars of the Baku Commune (including Stepan Shahoomyan) somewhere on the shores of the Caspian Sea.
- 1962 The Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet awards composer Avet Avetisyan the title of People's Artist of the USSR.
- 1990 The Azeri Turk attack on Martooni (Artsakh) is repulsed.
- 1992 Artsakh unsuccessfully petitions the United Nations, the Commonwealth of Independent States and other countries for recognition of its independence.
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